Three of our esteemed Animal Ambassadors from left to right: Dr. Kerry Bowman, Gene Baur, Bruce Friedrich
For the past few days, Davis has been focusing his GFJ on making a shift from vegetarian to vegan. He has been exploring ethical issues surrounding dairy, as well as dietary substitutions, especially for cheese. Some of the questions and issues posed were about “humane farms” and whether local, family farms are morally acceptable, how to use cheese substitutes in cooking, and what vitamins may be useful in a vegan diet. Today, Davis would like to address vegan stereotypes and stigma. Davis, what are you thoughts about this? How might these stereotypes affect how you feel about yourself, or how you are perceived in a social context?
The opinions we express as GFJ Coaches are ours personally. We are not professional health practitioners. Neither are we treating a specific health care issue. That means we are not offering advice on health-care problems. If you are experiencing a health-care problem, it is important to seek the advice of a health professional. However we are experienced, practicing vegans and we look forward to coaching you on your journey..
Hi Davis, Donna and Rosemary, I look forward to gaining some insight from this discussion!
Hey everyone! This started with me thinking about how much of American culture, especially male culture, is tied in for some reason with meat — and at the same time, representations of vegans (especially vegan men) generally seem to put forward the idea that they’re weak, naive or overly sensitive (in other words, not manly enough.) I wouldn’t say I’m nervous about my own feelings about myself — I’m pretty secure about stuff like that. But I think it’s almost inevitable that people around me would come to those conclusions. I’ve experienced it to some degree as a vegetarian. Especially as a guy.
When I think about it, though, I can think of a lot of vegan men who have influenced me in some way, from Peter Singer to Bill Clinton. And I’m familiar with the great work of two of the three men pictured at the top (I don’t know Kerry Bowman, but I’ll be looking into him after this post!) I tend to find role models less in celebrity than in a good mind and a lot of passion for making the world better, whether for animals or in general. Are there others who buck that stereotype?
This is such a great issue to expore, Davis. There certainly seems to be a great deal of advertising out there that equates manliness with big trucks and grilling various types of meat. Stereotypes abound in so many arenas.
As far as bucking that stereotype, Audrey has already mentioned Mike Tyson. There are a number of athletes who are vegan – and not just for health reasons. One example is Rob Bigwood who is a vegan pro arm wrestler. You can check out his blog :
https://blog.rbigwood.com/
I am glad to hear that you are secure in your feelings about how others might perceive you because of your beliefs. Has this issue come up in conversations with your friends or family?
Hello Davis!
I think is a very important topic to discuss, so I’m glad we are! Unfortunately, what we eat has been “gender-ized”. I think there are several books out there (maybe somebody can help with citations) on the inherent misogyny of the meat and dairy industry. I think it’s that misogyny that breeds the stereotype of “real men eat meat and potatoes and don’t care about other things”. First of all, I have a problem with any sentence beginning with “real men do this or that…” I don’t really understand why men’s masculinity is constantly questioned, but that’s a whole other discussion. I don’t think women should have the monopoly on caring, compassion, or empathy, and I think the world would be a much better place if more men bucked that stereotype.
You have many excellent points, Adrienne. I agree that any sentence that begins with “real…..” or for that matter “all……” is problematic. It seems that there is an inability to see individuals for who they are and so they have to be lumped together by some type of grouping.
Are you referring to “The Sexual Poliics of Meat” by Carol J. Adams ? I read it years ago and would highly recommend this to everyone. Have you heard of this book, Davis?
I’ve heard of it, and in fact I put it on my reading list a while back but it hasn’t made its way up the queue yet. A few friends have recommended I check it out. Does it address some of these same points?
And I completely agree about the problem with saying “real men / real whatever” etc. It’s disturbing to me that complete lack of compassion (or willful lack of awareness) could be considered a positive trait at all, let alone one an entire half of society is “supposed” to adopt.
Davis, I read the book many, many years ago. But from what I remember Carol Adams addressed this issue along with numerous other issues.
I just located an article “Five myths about vegans” on her blog. Myth 3 is “Veganism is emasculating —real men eat meat.”
Here is the link to the entire article:
https://caroljadams.blogspot.com/2011/05/five-myths-about-vegans.html
I think it’s wonderful that all of these myths and beliefs as well as stereotypes and stigma, do not affect how you feel about yourself. If you think it’s the people around you that “come to those conclusions” can you find a way to be ok with it anyway? I think this is key to moving forward and feeling positive about your choices. 🙂
I think I could get to that point — of course, it’s hard not to be affected by such a prevalent attitude. What’s worse, it’s something I don’t bring up around most of my friends because I’m afraid of playing the judgmental vegetarian role they’ve come to think exists. So I guess the problem isn’t so much that it makes me question my decisions (first to become vegetarian, now to move toward veganism), more that it’s so hard for me to communicate it to others without automatically bringing all that baggage to the table.
And of course, the indifference has a pretty strong effect on me too — just in the sense that I can’t fathom how people who are otherwise good, decent people could have such a huge blind spot. (I know the reasons go back thousands of years and have to do with a lot of social conditioning, but it’s still shocking when you’re confronted with it.) It can be very disheartening.
I am very much struck by your insight about the effect of people’s indifference. This can be difficult to deal with – in some ways, more so with those people who we are close to rather than strangers.
Can you share with us some of the conversations or experiences that you had in the past that have been disheartening?
A lot of them just end up as a broken record… “But bacon tastes good.” They all kind of blend together, so it’s hard to give a specific example. But that’s how it always goes — as if “bacon tastes good” could overrule anything.
These are good points. It is difficult to talk about it with friends and family sometimes, because some will call you “that judgmental vegan” no matter what you say or how you say it. In this case, if you are careful about how you talk about veganism or something related, is most likely the defense mechanism kicking in (denial). Have you read the book, “Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows” by Melanie Joy? I think you will find this book most interesting and relevant to many of the psycho-social issues you raise.
The way I feel about it, is that vegans are usually not the ones who are so judgmental, as the ultimate judgement is deciding who’s life is taken and who’s isn’t….you know what I mean ?
Mike Tyson?
I have emailed several men that I know have a lot to say about this subject matter of meat and masculinity. Hoping that they will chime in.
This recent University of Chicago marketing study of using meat as a metaphor for understanding how to market masculinity is quote enormous in its implications for how pervasive this belief is today: https://freefromharm.org/food-and-culture/university-of-chicago-consumer-study-re-asserts-the-meat-and-machismo-metaphor-in-marketing/
Somewhat related to the issue of masculinity is of course a thirst for power which is strongly associated with masculinity and feeds the meat and masculinity myth. See “Meat Feeds More than Our Bodies. Meat Feeds Our Egos”: https://freefromharm.org/food-and-culture/meat-feeds-more-than-our-bodies-meat-feeds-our-egos/
Great discussion, and so many interesting points to think about .
Power (money), patriarchy, and dominion have been the a large part of the driving force behind the meat industry. Will Tuttle, in The World Peace Diet, describes the cultural and historical roots of all of this dating back 10,000 years to herding culture.
Davis, I highly recommend this book.
Thank you for sharing these links, Robert. I love your website. I have not watched the entire debate – only the speech by Philip Wollen (actually I have watched his speech at least a dozen times!).
For me, Philip Wollen embodies the true traits of a strong man – compassion, empathy and a commitment to do what is right.
Davis – have you had an opportunity to watch the video of the 2-hour long Australian debate about meat eating called Should Animals Be Left Off the Menu?
Hi Robert Grillo,
Founder of Free From Harm: https://freefromharm.org/
Many thanks for your input!
Wonderful website, and work Robert! I am looking forward to exploring this. Thanks for your input and sharing your work.
Hi Davis,
What an important topic being discussed today because it also is questioning/interrupting the social construct of gender, in general. In order for traits such as power, dominance, strength, insensitivity to be ascribed to males, the opposite traits are ascribed to females. Essentializing women to always be the caregivers and caretakers, nurturers and peacemaking is equally inadequate and false. Carol Adams in her book “The Sexual Politics of Meat” does discuss this well. Her work has also been challenged by feminists too, for not being inclusive enough to women’s varied experiences. Margot Spiegel in her book “The Dreaded Comparison”, makes the connection between slavery and animal abuse, while interrogating power in relation to race, class and gender as it pertains to animal rights issues. It is an interesting read too.
Hi Davis – this is totally off topic here, but it would be great if you were able to take some pics of the wonderful meals that you have been preparing and post on here (or on tomorrow’s post). I just thought abou this since I am preparing to go home now and cook.
I’ll be back on later!
Donna, I actually did take pictures of the pizza! I’m not great at taking pictures of food, so go easy on me, but I’ll upload them later tonight!
Great idea! What’s on the menu tonight?
Probably nothing fancy, since today’s the heaviest day of the work week for me… We’ll probably do something very basic like pasta. But I’ll let you know if I decide to try something new!
Although this may be as good a time as any to ask about ideas for quick & easy recipes that could incorporate Daiya pepperjack vegan cheese…
I’m not a huge fan of cheese substitutes (but I haven’t tried some the nut cheeses that were mentioned yesterday), but I do tend to use it when cooking for non-vegans. One favorite is stuffed peppers, and the pepperjack melds very well into those flavors. I also use it to make enchiladas, pizza, and bean dishes with cheese . How about a tofu scramble with cheese?
https://theveeword.blogspot.com
All I can say, is that Rhea Parsons, of the V-Word makes the most outrageous recipes. Check out her blog. She is hoping to have a cookbook published….soon I hope!
Thank you for mentioning me and my blog and for the kind words.
Davis, the topic of gender and veganism is really interesting. I published an interview with Carol Adams on my blog last October. That did focus on women but it is true that there are a lot of stereotypes regarding men and food. I think the people who buy into these stereotypes are omnivores more than vegans – the idea that men are the big meat-eaters, that men are the grillers, etc.
Anyway, good luck on your journey and if you need any dinner ideas, I’m always around. And I love pepperjack Daiya. In fact, it’s there best flavor in the shreds. I have a lot of recipes that you could use that in. Someone mentioned a tofu scramble. I have a recipe for a Mexican scramble and all the sides that is so delicious or an easier Southwestern one.
If you’re thinking pasta, I have plenty of those too. Have fun on your journey.
Thanks so much, Rhea. Southwestern / Mexican food is my absolute favorite and probably somewhere around 50% of what I cook. So I’m off to look that up, and also the Carol Adams interview!
I have been wanting to read The Politics Of Meat for ages, but haven’t done it yet. I’ll definitely read your interview, Rhea!
Davis seems pretty excited about cooking, and I know he’ll love you’re recipes. Everyone does!
This is fascinating! I wonder what role hunting plays in the gender constructs around masculinity and food? It seems to me there is a lot of comparisons between hunting and eating even though relatively few people hunt compared to the number who eat meat. I’m thinking specifically of a magazine cover I saw recently (was it The Grid? I’m afraid I can’t remember) where they showed a man holding a severed pig’s head. It was supposed to promote an article about restaurants but I fail to see how this is supposed to be appetizing.
A couple of vegan dishes I really like are mushroom “burgers” and burritos that have beans instead of ground meat or meat substitute and avocado instead of cheese. I really liked the cheese and meat substitutes when I first started experimenting with vegan food but both my husband and I found the soy really hard to digest.
Liz, I did see that cover photo the other day, and it was very difficult to look at. Your points about hunting and gender constructs is also an interesting topic. Perhaps part 2 of this stimulating discussion!
There were so many great in-depth posts and references today on this topic. Great Day3! Thank you, Davis and everyone for your contributions.
For everyone who wanted to see photos of the pizza, here it is! Warning: I’m not a good food photographer. But the pizza was delicious!
For the crust, I used whole wheat bread flour. It was a little unlike the pizza crusts I’ve made before (I haven’t made THAT many), but tasty in its own right. I will play around with mixing flours and try to come up with something magnificent.
The cheese was actually the highlight, no kidding. It was amazing. I used a blend of mozzarella and the pepperjack (combine that with the jalapenos and crushed red peppers and it was one hot pizza.) It melted perfectly – I’d never been able to get vegan cheese to melt until now. I might be loyal to these brands! (At least until I try that vegan nut cheese…)
[img]https://www.theghostsinourmachine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/photo15-1.jpg[/img]
Your pizza looks very delicious ! I love the idea of mixing the cheese with the peppers also. Is that a pizza stone?
I am sorry to have missed so much of this wonderfully fortifying dialogue these past few days.
First of all, your pizza looks sculpturally gorgeous, Davis. Well done. I participated in the GFJ in November 2011, and one of the many things that I loved about the journey was the great support network, the thoughtful cooking, and honestly the food styling of photos to share.
The tempo of vegan cooking seems to me very much aligned with certain principles of slow fashion, ethical textile production, and even the handmade to some degree. I will not digress on this topic, but one thing I have noticed about images of the “vegan male” (at least in terms of fashion), is that the aesthetic is beautifully clean, thoughtful, and self-aware. I am not really sure how to describe it.
Which brings me to the “masculine” component: I think that is is vital for society and media to also incorporate new ideas about what conscious style, contemporary fashion, even grooming looks like. We are accustomed to cowboy chaps, stubble, and chewing on beef jerky as being a stereotypically masculine look, but the more you know about fashion’s inner workings, the more you can read into the choices that a man (or woman) makes and what makes them in turn truly attractive.
I feel a dissertation coming on.
I like very much that Joshua Katcher of The Discerning Brute includes the “word” etiquette in his examination of vegan style, living, and consciousness (activism even).
https://www.thediscerningbrute.com
I propose that the more these images are shared in the media the more our ideas might gradually shift over time.
It’s the conscious etiquette that is vital. We just have to get used to this grace and brave/gentle approach.
See attached photo of John Bartlett’s runway show at NYFW, courtesy of The Discrning Brute and GQ.com
Good luck with Day 4 ~ Abigail
[img]https://www.theghostsinourmachine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/00140m.jpg[/img]
Abigail, thank you so much for your thoughtful insights from an artist and fashion perspective. Stereotypes are being challenged, and I agree that we need more visuals to aid us in shifting our view.
We’re so glad that you are part of the GFJ alum, and welcome your contributions always <3
I also wanted to add, that I found this review of John Bartlett SS13 to be completely off the point and part of the problem:
https://www.style.com/fashionshows/review/S2013MEN-JBARTLETT
John Bartlett dedicated his new collection to “the plant-based man.”
… ” The downside is that, like many plant-based diets, this one didn’t offer enough to sink your teeth into. Wearable as it all was, from suiting to cross-cultural specialties like the djellaba and adaptations of the guayabera and the shalwar kameez, it was missing some heft on the runway. A presentation might’ve suited Bartlett and his laudable ideals better.”
Seek your teeth into? Heft? Terms of the past when it comes to reviewing contemporary fashion, in my opinion. At least they did not launch into “real men do not wear pink”.
Hi Abigial! Your insights are always so very much appreciated – and also so spot on! I too love the words that Joshua uses together – brave and gentle. It is so refreshing in a world that still seems to pair the word brave with macho.
How sad that the reviewer used those phrases. It is difficult not to think about meat when someone uses the phrase ‘sink your teeth into’. I am so glad that there are people like Joshua and you who are leading the industry forward. xo